Episode 2 - Pilot Social Media and Airline Check Airman how to succeed during IOE
Updated: Mar 23, 2020
Dylan and Max discuss their favorite pilot social media sites, including message boards and Facebook groups, (see below for a list of the ones they mentioned) [0:51]. Chuck, a check airman on the airbus for a major airline, joins us to talk about IOE [20:00], compare how pilots with corporate, military, and regional airline experience handle airline training [24:13], and offer up some tips for pilots going through IOE for their first time [35:45]. And finally, Dylan shares a couple of stories from the road: a run in with the Mexican Military [55:30] and making juice for a celebrity DJ [58:30].
Pilot message boards:
Facebook groups we discussed:
Sub groups for specific aircraft types eg; Challenger 601/604/605 /650 Pilots
Calvin Harris Juice Recipe
2 bags of spinach
1 ginger root
1 air tight bag of beets (2 large beets pre-cooked & soft)
1 pint of Pineapple chunks
1 bag of kale
1 lemon ( juice only half of the lemon)
Cayenne pepper to taste
Pilot on the Radio 0:05
You're on 121 five the emergency frequency.
Welcome to the 21 five show a new podcast for professional pilots by professional pilots.
I'm Dylan and I'm joined by my friend and co host max. We're both professional pilots with experience in flight instruction airlines and business aviation.
Today we're going to discuss pilots social media, a check airman from a major airline joins us to talk about what he does and gives us some tips and strategies to succeed in training. And then Dylan tells us one of his favorite stories from the road.
everybody welcome back. Today we're going to talk about one of God's greatest gifts to aviation. It's aviation social media and whether it's for The endless threads of humor on there and people just whether they're intending to be funny or not. It is actually a great resource for a lot of quality information, answers to questions you might have on, you know, really any subject and that put questions on there about weird international destinations that I've had to go to and try to figure out, you know, how it's going to be done and where to even stay from technical questions on airplanes and all that stuff. But one thing I want to bring up is thank everybody for engaging with us. After episode one on social media, yeah, absolutely. We've had a great thread going and profile world a lot of people came out of the woodwork, with suggestions offers to be on the podcast, which we're taking them up on rapidly, and scheduling interviews, and it's going to be some really, really good content that came out of that.
coming down the pipe. Yeah, we had such great feedback from everybody online. So thank you so much. Well, you know what? We didn't get it wasn't all 100% positive. Yeah, we had one sour grapes and the bunch. It was one of our closest friends from college. You know, he's just a bitter airline pilot. I guess he doesn't enjoy our show, but we call them. We recorded it. So here's a little clip of our conversation. I think we're going to start calling we need a name for this segment.
Yeah, I think straight talk with Ted.
Real talk with Ted Talk with that. Someone like that.
Yeah, he's he's just right to the point.
Yeah. Okay. Here's our call.
calling you were in our recording studio. Right now.
I just wanted to get your initial reactions on the podcast.
Dear 121, five. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think if I have to listen to you talk about aircraft corrosion for an hour. I you know, I'd rather shoot myself.
What do you want me to do you want to hear
especially in the European market?
That's a ringing.
Can we use that for our website? You
can quote me. Again. Thanks, everybody for interacting with us. We really appreciate it. It's great.
Yeah, we're really looking forward to some of the things we've got in the pipeline right now. And I just need to take a minute to thank all of the pilots, especially on the Facebook groups that apparently just have no filter. Just post anything. It's so entertaining. We really appreciate it. You know, as a pilot, you have a lot of time to kill. Sometimes in getting online and looking at these pilot, social media groups is just, it's a it is it's a blessing from above.
So thank you. Yeah, you know, pilots are always an interesting group. So
it's the best. So yeah, a lot has changed in the last 20 years with aviation and social media. I think I've you see people getting jobs through social media contract work networking. I mean, it's completely different than it was. Even when we started out I think
I feel like the message boards have been around for quite some time. But this the Facebook group thing that's really come out of the woodwork within the last 12 months. Couple years.
I mean, we're probably pretty slow.
Especially me, I never claimed to be a real social media expert. I you know, I have a lot of friend requests that have been there for a long time. But, you know, I'm that guy. Dylan's much more on top of it. And I'm fortunate to get links and screenshots in tune to the good stuff. And then when I need answers to my own questions, I you know, become active obviously.
Yeah, so we figured it probably a good idea just to talk about a few of the places that we recommend. Pretty much any pilot depending on No matter if your business aviation or if you're an airline, pilot or cargo or whatever. Just put a few things on your radar might be entertaining, but more importantly resources for in information, networking, all that kind of stuff. So, first and foremost, I think probably pro pilot world com is our favorite place to go.
Yeah, I think pro pilot world gives a really good balance of quality as far as the information and the members, as well as quantity, because there's a lot of guys on there from a lot of different subsets of aviation. So whether you're a corporate guy that has a question on trying to get a job at a certain airline, or question on how to purge the water system on a Gulfstream 550, or whatever, I think that's a really good place to get solicit for information. And I think the information you get in return is always been very reliable in my experience.
Yeah. And there's a barrier to entry you do. There's a yearly membership fee. It's not expensive, and I think you might have to, like prove your pilot, maybe give him your certificate numbers or
something. I mean, it's like, what's the membership? It's 12 $12 deal better, significant, but it does weed out the riffraff for sure exactly. So that's probably our favorite spot. Really, I think of all of the different sites that has a such a great group of contributors. It's really invaluable. So that's one of our favorites to go to. So while pro pilot world is great, that's more of a message board format, you know, different categories of airlines, corporate charter, all that stuff. One of the ones we mentioned before, that's really come out of the woodwork lately, and has also a lot of very good information. With a very quick response time. I think I would add more than you would think, is the facebook, facebook groups. I shouldn't say the Facebook. movie and father Yeah, Facebook and the groups and Facebook. So some of those popular ones are the private jet pilots. Yep. And professional general. Those are both Yeah, they're they're pretty similar, both really good groups that are pushing 10,000 members or something like that each.
Yeah, it's a time there's probably a lot of overlap between the two of them, but those are really good ones. Again, there is a barrier to entry, you don't have to pay but you do have to prove your pilot and answer some questions and stuff like that.
Right? And then of those even within those, but there's subsets on certain aircraft types. So I know when I went to g450 initial our instructors like hey, if you guys want to really good resources for 550 Facebook group that is really valuable, has a lot of great information and so I joined it when I was in grad school and it is I mean, it's I've searched stuff on there I've even posted stuff because it was new airplane to me and the guy I was flying with and we got some quality answers very quickly from guys that a lot of time in that airplane that I didn't know I didn't have anybody that I could just call I just didn't have that guy at the time. So that group proved to be very valuable and and you know, yeah, it's really good. We haven't really saved us from messing up the airplane wants right
yeah, I know it's we haven't for the challenger it pretty much every major business aviation airplane has its own groups, yeah, or multiple groups. And
so that's a really good reason. And there's other ones too For I know, some of my friends are part of this one that's for like Southwest guys. It's Southwest new hires, Facebook group that so those guys ask a lot of questions that new guys would ask. And there's some experienced guys on there that helped provide the answers. But it doesn't kind of bog down another group with it's more broad, where the majority of the guys are not brand new. So that content obviously wouldn't be very interesting if you've been there for a while. But
yeah, and so if you're doesn't matter, this segment of aviation you're in, I would search Facebook for groups and see if there's something that matches what you're doing. If you just got hired at Spirit Airlines, there's probably a group for that. Or if you just started flying citation 525, then there's probably a group for that too. So that's a great Facebook is becoming a huge resource. And you know, like, I wanted to quit Facebook for a long time because I was just like, I'm done with this. But from a career standpoint, it's so good now like, I don't know if I can because there's so many great resources. That's honestly When I'm using Facebook now, that's pretty much what I'm using it for. Are those groups.
Yeah, I'm the same way. I've had people say why don't you just cancel your Facebook account you never do anything you don't even pay attention and approve friend requests and and i'm not in it for the social end of it either but it's more of a you know, the business and and the professional part of it that I do. that's by far my greatest and highest invest in most frequent use of Facebook.
Yeah, a couple other great groups. The corporate aviation jobs listing group is really good. They've got some really dedicated posters on there that come all of the different job boards and then they post all the job openings there on the on the page. And that's awesome because then you get guys, they'll chime in, you know, somebody will post a link from indeed or one of these and then some will say, oh, that I know that airplane that's in my hangar. I know somebody that works there, like here's the details on on where this airplane flies or what it does. So that's a super interactive way to look for jobs and get more information. They also have a subgroup that is their contractor network. Yeah. That one's awesome. Two people post needs for contract pilots. And a lot of people get linked up. And what's cool about it is in Facebook, you can see who you can see mutual friends. So for example, if I'm an operator and I say, hey, I need a king or pilot and somebody responds, I can click on their name in CO Do I have a mutual friend with that person? Oh, I do. And then I can reach out and talk to that third party and be like, Hey, you know, what do you think of this guy? Or do you have you flown with them already. So it's a really valuable resource. And it is really starting to become a hub for contract stuff. That's a really good point. I hadn't even considered that because as we all know, aviation is a very small world.
Yeah. And I think that helps us connect the dots to show you how small it is, gives you additional resources to utilize. Another thing too, is people post empty legs on some of those social media sites, which is, you know, cool if you're in a position to be able to take advantage of something like that, you know, that could be a real nice first date.
Yeah. Absolutely. Right, right. Or just Good way to get rid of somebody made that a one way trip and I kind of leave them.
Another thing we left out though, as it pertains to the job stuff is pro pilot world is super valuable for people searching for jobs. And what we see a lot of time are guys that that comb all the different job websites and whether it's MEWA or you know, whatever. And they'll post those jobs on there. And then it seems invariably every single time somebody on there has carnal knowledge of that job, whether it's based at their airport, or they know the guy that just quit or whatever. And it seems like, you know, you get a lot of the behind the scenes background information on those jobs. And they also have exclusive ones, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah, they
have exclusive jobs on prob. I think we need to get them to sponsor us or something and all this free.
So, yeah, there there's a lot of great resources for social media that we just didn't have, you know, 1015 years ago is really a great advantage. A couple other kind of more fun and entertaining groups that I'm part of do recommend there's one called the pilots guide to food, which I really enjoy in that's just one where people will make a post about where they're going and restaurants they like in a certain city. So doesn't matter if the airline corporate cargo, whatever, like if you're traveling and you like to eat which most pilots like to do, it's one of our favorite activities when we're on the road. It's a really fun resource and you can just go to the page type in you know, like Houston or whatever and stuff will come up people you'll see pictures of big plates of barbecue and, and good food. So I've been really enjoying that I throw posted now and then have favorite spots that I found as well.
Yeah, and my personal feeling is that's one of the only places it's acceptable to post pictures of food on social media. Wasn't it that thing on? You told me about a while ago really funny.
Dr. Oh, yeah, someone posted a thing and they said, Does anyone know have a website where I can see what my friends from high school are eating?
Obviously referring to face because it seems like all it was for a while was I don't know if that's just my thing or whatever, but people posting pictures of Dinner on Facebook just drives me
Yeah, this group you're going to get that but it is it's for a good cause
in that group at least it's solicited you're there for that purpose night just you know, scrolling through your feed and seeing what everyone's having fun Yeah, that's just a weird
so that's it's a fun way and then one other group I will shamelessly plug right now because it's actually my group but it's becoming legendary. It is it's it's, we're, we're really building something incredible. It's the aviation license plates group, which sounds like it shouldn't even exist, or that there would be you know, four members and seven pictures. But this group, all we do is take and post pictures of people with aviation vanity license plates, and which is just a gold mine of comedy and ego all combined. It's just, it's amazing. It's incredible. And I can't we have hundreds of photos. And I have I think there's over 300 members in the group right now. It's stunning. Every single day people are posting more pictures. I thought we would have, like, here in Arizona, there are a lot of pilots a lot of retired, you know, people here and active training and all that stuff. And I've been doing we've been collecting these photos for year 10 year over 10 years and I would have thought I would have gotten every single one in Arizona. Just you know, I don't know, I still get them. I just got one yesterday. Like it's incredible. And I get people send them to me from all over the city and they're still coming in. So Bravo pilots, I applaud your ego. I applaud your need to tell you know, it's like the old joke where they say, how do you know when a pilots at a party? He'll tell you Yeah, he'll let you know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So thank you so much. I've really created a great group from
hilarious the sheer volume is staggering. It is amazing. I have no idea. I'd encourage you to check that out because it is certainly good for a few laughs And yeah, blow you away.
It's cool and and there are some that are really clever and I think And I really enjoy some of them. Some of them are, are not as clever but
rightfully with the guy g three CAPTG three captain. Yeah, but this was like in 2012 or whatever it wasn't, is this not you know, it's not a 650 let's just say that right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But what my favorite is somebody we know that has an end number on his license plate which isn't uncommon right? Yeah, you know you're 172 or your Mooney or whatever you own. But this is the end number of the corporate jet that he flies that he doesn't own. Yeah. which I find very bold
that's what we call it power move.
But I you know, I guess that's not much different than that guy that has a captain.
Right? I mean, I it's just, it's incredible.
I don't know all of it. All of it is incredible. But it's, it is entertaining.
I just wonder like, if I get my own aviation license plate Are you going to like I feel like I should because
Think budget, I think it's here you're gonna Yeah, at this point, we've we've laughed too hard at other people where
it just seems very difficult. We probably offending like half of our listeners right now because half of them have licensed aviation like whatever,
you know what, like I've always said, you know, there's there's two types of pilots, right? There's the types where aviation defines them, like, that's who they are like, they're a pilot that's, you know, have the belt buckle with the airplane on a whole deal, you know, and then there's guys that fly airplanes as a job and you know, have a lot of other interests in whatever and so I think you find a lot of the former pilot that advertised everybody via their personalized license with their pilot, but I love it. What do I know? I'm not a psychologist as a psycho health.
Anyways, aviation license plates is the name of the Facebook group. Go check it out. And then the last thing we want to talk about a little bit is some of the other social media platforms. The one I really like is Instagram. We have our own Instagram for this podcast. It's at two One five podcast, which is to one FIV podcast, we post a lot, I wouldn't say a lot. But we I take some of those aviation license plates from my collection. I'll post a few of those every week. So check that out. And then we'll post little clips from the show and photos of interviews and that kind of stuff. And I think Instagram super fun. That's probably my favorite of the social media platforms just for just to kind of cruise around, take a look at pictures. There are 10 million pilots that are on there that have accounts and they share pictures and what they're doing and videos. Yeah,
it can be interesting. I don't disagree. There's some really cool ones that I actually follow to like business jet. I don't remember it's called business jets or whatever. But it's just great photos of jets with cool paint jobs. I've actually sent that to the owner of plans looking for a new paint scheme. I just follow this. You know, don't worry about looking out the window. Whatever you do this, this has the coolest paint jobs I've ever seen. Yeah. Which is really cool. I think another site that we failed to mention that's very valuable as airline pilot Central. A lot of people go there for pay rates. Hiring status and they have the stats on all the different airlines and how many pilots on property and what their 401k matches all that stuff. But there's a really good message board behind that that's very airline focused. They don't allow any solicitation or advertising of your business or anything like that. So there's no fluff. It's just mostly guys that are looking for, you know, whether it's interview gouge or what's going on and contract negotiate anything that has to do with the airlines. That's a really good resource, I think for airline information.
Yeah, for the 121. Guys, I know a lot of the unions also run their own message. So you can get on to that, but I'm not if you're in that union, you already know about that. So that's well
yeah, and the cool thing I think about those are obviously the guys are vetted. You know, they work at that airlines. Yeah. You know, imposters if you will, is it's all guys that are in that group.
I know what the airline we used to work at you had it was like you use your real name too. So yeah, kept things a little bit more under control, for better or worse, maybe less entertaining stuff, but usually good information. So Anyways, that's that's kind of a rundown on the social media stuff that we're into. I know we've missed a ton of things that I'm sure our listeners are really into. So if you've got something that you think we missed that we need to be on or check out, you can let us know emails info at 21 five podcast com, or hit us up on the socials. on all of them. It's at 21 five podcast. So thanks again for your contributions online and and the positive messages we received on our first episode. We're looking forward to a lot more great content. And speaking of great content, we got our buddy Chuck, who's the check airman coming up, we call him Chuck airman. So I think you guys will enjoy this segment to help everyone thinks that's as funny as
Chuck MN hot. Yeah,
somebody just went, wait a minute. That's a great idea to do that too. All right, tone up our interview with Chuck airman.
Today we have a special treat. We have our friend Chuck, who we went to school with in studio with us today in the hangar Chuck is a check airman at a 121 carrier on the Airbus. And we thought it'd be interesting to have Chuck in come and tell us a little bit about what a check airman does. And what he sees out there on the on the line flying with a large variety of pilots,
especially a large variety of brand new pilots. Yeah, just fresh out of training, or initial operating experience.
So let's start kind of with the basics check. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? Where what's your flying background? What What have you done so far in your career?
Chuck Airman 20:43
Well, sure, well, I spent some. After high school I went to a aviation oriented college for that pretty standard thing I did was flight instructed for a few years made my way into the regional airlines flew turboprop and regional jet aircraft. Moving on to a major airline and flown a couple larger airliners want to McDonnell Douglas product followed by currently an Airbus.
And how long have you been with that major airline working on almost 12 years now and it's awesome. Were you a flight instructor? I was kinda looks like you're using a probably a lot of those skills as a check airman. Yeah. So turn imagine it turns
Chuck Airman 21:25
out that I am again. And the fun part of this is actually let me see if I expire. I no longer have it. Now your ATP is all you need to be a check airman once you're in 121 carrier. I would tell people all the time, I have no intention to go actually flight strict like I did back in the day. But you know, once you make your way to a 121 carrier, it's a little different. It's a different setting. You're working with professional pilots.
So you can like yell at them and make them cry and
Chuck Airman 21:54
do it occasionally.
So let's start from the beginning here. Let's just talk For some of our listeners maybe aren't really familiar with the whole structure. What a check airman is, can you just talk a little bit about what they are? Do you work for the FAA? Do you work for the airline like well, how does that all set up?
Chuck Airman 22:11
Well, technically you you're employed by the airline. And there are different types of check airman Nick, the type that I am is the one that's in the airplane. So I am in the aircraft, I fly with the new guys, I also go out and do routine checks on the those who are currently online and out there flying routinely. We also have checker men that are in the simulator. So when you first get assigned to an aircraft, and you go through the classes, and in the schools, and then you have to get into the simulator and you have to learn how to fly. There's you you learn with the trainers in there and then when you're finished, you take a test with a simulator check airman, which is similar although different what I do I don't do anything in the simulator. I've chosen not too. I think the airplane is where it's fun, where the where the good stuffs that but yeah, I'm out there. They got someone brand new and they sent them to me. So I'm there when the new guy or a girl is doing her, or his first landing in an Airbus while I'm sitting there watching them do it and they got 100 and something people in the back who have no clue.
So what what's that call when you get the fresh guy out of school, he just passes type right in the simulator and he shows up.
Chuck Airman 23:20
Well, that's called initial operating experience. abbreviated IOEIOE. shopper and experience. The idea is you've already been taught how to fly the airplane. Now you're going to show up and put yourself in the operation for the airline you're now employed with and you're going to be dealing with all the real world around, you've got your flight attendants, you've got your ground ops. mechanic, you got a unruly passenger who's throwing punches in the aisle or, you know, just stuff like that, dispatches calling. You hit a bird, what are you gonna do about it? Stuff like that. Now, you got to figure out how you're going to get through life that day instead of just sitting in a computer box.
Yeah, we all know the difference between the training and environment and real world is fairly significant. Yeah, you know, usually the engines aren't lighting on fire and failing at v1 and everything else, but you do have other curveball. So you know, I've always been curious about this. So you know, I guess at this level when you're flying a large you know, airliner the main source of your pilots are coming from three different disciplines Yes, you got a guy come in who's been a corporate pilot say you know, for this example, guys didn't corporate by the whole time never had a stint to the regionals, whatever, then you got a guy that came has been flying at the regionals for a long time and the 121 environment, and then you have guys fresh out of the military. So when those guys show up at IOE, what are the differences? I mean, every pie is different. We all get it, but if you could kind of categorize each of those in what you see, I think that'd be really interesting.
Chuck Airman 24:49
Yes, this is very easy for me to stereotype different types. I've seen hundreds of the size so it's, it's really easy for me, you know, the we'll start with the corporate fellas They're in a different, very different operation where you're, you're out there and you're running the show, you know, if something needs to be done, you're kind of the one that's in charge of getting that done. So I like to think of these types more as Cowboys, you know, something that needs to be done. And a lot of times, they just kind of jump up and do it. Or they might do it differently than what's expected. And when you when you try and correct them, or bring them back from it, that they give you this look like what's the big deal? I'm getting it done. But of course, you have to say, well, that's just not how we do it here. Because you're now you're working at 121 airline there, they have a manual, they're like we want like this really just don't break from this script. And that's a little bit difficult for them. And a lot of them sometimes are single pilot, and some
of that. Yeah, so you know, the CRM sometimes is a little
Chuck Airman 25:48
Yeah, you know, there are a lot of times they're just right up there, right, just do everything by themselves. Instead of embracing that to a pilot situation. The military guys, they're kind of almost hilarious. Sometimes. They're usually Really good stick, you know, I want to certainly prop them up. They're really good on the aircraft, they can fly really well. But when it comes to operating like the radios in,
yeah, especially in a high density environment and
Chuck Airman 26:12
the you know, the the communications with the military is very, very different. And they say some very unique things that when you hear them saying them on the radio, you're going to think what are you seeing right now? Nobody understands what you say. And so you're trying to give them new terminology to use that they haven't been using in their career in the military. And so they sound like a total beginner like private pilot, but, you know, a year later they said that the rest of us not a big deal, but you're dealing with that while you're trying to immerse them in that new environment. And as far as the regional pilots, you know, they're they've kind of already been doing it. Just usually smaller pass.
Got it. Easiest transition. Yeah, I
Chuck Airman 26:48
think they're the easiest or the youngest, so they usually adapt pretty quick, pretty well. They have understandings of things like dealing with larger airports going in and out or hair or something. They don't want no big deal, you will find that they're usually younger. And this day and age in 2019 it's a different time than, say 1015 years ago when things move slower. So you've got some really young guys
like how what's the youngest dude that you've given it to have been rough? Or do dat? 23 or four? For real? Wow.
Chuck Airman 27:16
Yeah. Very fresh and yeah. And so he gave him a booster seats.
Not this was his mother on the jump seat when
Chuck Airman 27:27
I didn't ask but I should have. But you know, sometimes when these guys really young, they come up real fast. They have really high expectations almost almost like this something that they've deserved. Here they are this airline already so fast and, and you kind of have to almost slow them down. And I don't want to say they're coming across as cocky. But things move faster for them, then maybe a lot of the rest of us experienced and so they are expecting things from their employer and from the industry that they're now a part of, and sometimes they get a little anxious. So do you have to stroll up in your cowboy boots and put your arm around and be like,
let me tell you something.
Let me tell you a couple things here. I might not be the cover this guy.
Chuck Airman 28:09
No, please, either. So
yeah, I think we kind of touched on a little bit before. But at the airlines The first time you actually fly an airplane almost always is a live revenue leg with passengers on board. So that's got to be a balance for you, you know, where you're ultimately running the show. You're keeping an eye on someone that has very little experience, plus trying to operate in on time safe airline flight. What's the learning curve is a check airman to I mean, yeah, be able to do that. There is some time involved. And I remember the way I felt and the very beginning. And the way I handled things was very different back then it takes at least six months to a year to finally get your groove. You can you can look back on the mistakes you made early on and you can kind of Wish you could take him back. But
Chuck Airman 29:02
there's no way to.
That's the way it is. Yeah.
Chuck Airman 29:07
But yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, you've got someone showing up there day one, they've never flown the plane. You're the only one that has. And nobody else knows
how often how many times you got in the situation we've actually had to, like, intervene.
Chuck Airman 29:21
And we know it alls. Not many as people would think I, I probably have close to 4000 hours of actually sitting with someone doing operating experience, like we're talking about here. There's been a few oftentimes, you will maybe touch the controls a little bit to assist but you usually don't have to totally take the controls from somebody
geeky UIOE with captain's to right. Yes, both
Chuck Airman 29:46
so you're qualified and every seat in the flight deck.
You guys obviously have been around so is no, no worry usually on helping out with the landing. Because the problem is though isn't the Airbus where, you know, the Dependent Lee, independent moving sticks on each side, right? You can push left, he can push, right?
Chuck Airman 30:04
Yes, they can use them both at the same time they add together.
Oh really. So the captain doesn't automatically
Chuck Airman 30:10
know there is an override button on both sides you can override the other one. But the thing is you're trying to generalize the captain's maybe they had more time. And that's not necessarily the case. In fact, one of my best stories was I had a new hire at our airline. He came from another airline, this guy had a lot of experience now. According to him, he had at least 10,000 hours in the Airbus, which is currently being Trent, which at the time was way more than myself. And he even claimed to have been, and it seems to be true. He was a vice president of flight operations at the carrier that you came from that is now defunct.
Yes. So he's great. I mean, if you've ever been in an airline, you know you're in trouble when you're playing with the management pilot.
Chuck Airman 30:57
Well, Dr. trip I took the controls for this Sky, Atlantic. Yes, he was he was very unstable. Very high very fast. And it's okay, let's go around and he tried to fight me out. He's like, no, I could do it. But it keeps going, I'm like, No, okay, let's let's go around which come around and try this one more time and go around is of course, you know, not to the land, you're going to continue forward, go back up, returned and try and land again. But he continued to argue with me to the pointers. I had to say, Okay, all right, my controls and I took the control of the airplane and flew it up and got alongside the airport again, where I went Hidden Hand in the aircraft back and city ready to try again. And he was very upset. But I was shocked and surprised that his inability to get this airplane down and so either he greatly exaggerated his experience, or he's just one of those people that it's maybe struggled with or spent too much time in the office and never actually flew
through the desk. What happened on the second attempt,
Chuck Airman 31:56
he made it with some guidance and coaching. It was Though pretty
interesting. Wow. You know, never saw that coming.
Yeah, no kidding
Chuck Airman 32:06
not after he gave me his full resume right there and
share. Well, I guess that's goes to show you, you know, you always got to be on your toes no matter why
I imagine you at this point probably just don't trust anybody, right? Nobody doesn't matter what they tell you they've done or whatever. It's just, you treat everyone the same. Yeah, yeah, you treat everyone the
Chuck Airman 32:24
same. Everybody gets the equal opportunity to succeed or totally mess it up.
What about so another part is, is giving line checks, right. So this is just routine observation of guys that have been online for year to 10 years, whatever. Right.
Chuck Airman 32:40
Yeah, you know, normally that's kind of a non issue. A lot of our pilots in the airlines, you know, especially in the United States, we have fantastic pilots in United States any any carrier you go anywhere. So traditionally the way this works, it's a really easy job for me, I show up and I show up to these two great pilots and in the flight deck and Irish right along and I watch them that day. You know, the Enjoy the time everything's fine. You know, they do their job fine. At the end of the day we shake hands, hey, have a great day. We'll see you next year. No big deal. But you know, it is entirely possible someone could make a mistake. And it could lead to what's called a failed line check, which could be a D called pilot and they have to do qualified pilot and have to go back and train a little bit and good, re qualified, brought back up to speed before they go back out and do their job again,
how often does that happen?
Chuck Airman 33:26
Not very often. Not not very often at all.
There's so many standards in place and standardization as far as getting these guys to be able to fly the way the company expects them that I imagine the people that succeed, just are ones that can subscribe to
Chuck Airman 33:42
that. Right? Well, it's it's a very challenging career to succeed in, you have to try really hard and you know, we have thousands of these professionals across America. Regardless, regardless of the airline, you're at, you're held at a very high standard and you have to continuously re re qualify yourself on a yearly basis. So You know, these pilots are very aware of what's expected of them, and they know this is coming. And so they're very prepared for these tight line checks the majority of the time,
that's what a lot of people don't realize, I think that aren't in aviation is that, you know, if you're an accountant or something like that, you know, not every year, are you taking a check? Right, that essentially your job depends on you know, it's it's a stressful event. There's a lot of guys, I think that you know, it gets easier for over time that their heart that heart rate doesn't go up a beat when they do a test. Right. And some people freak out for 30 years, right?
Chuck Airman 34:33
You're absolutely right. I see what we call it the check red jitters?
Yeah, I was just gonna say, when you get in with somebody, what are the signs that telltale signs you see, even before you talk to them, like, no, like, these guys are nervous or this is, you know, what do you how do you recognize that and how do you cut the tension and try and relax?
Chuck Airman 34:52
You know, that's a great question. And I don't think I have a real concrete answer with things you can see but sometimes you see them kind of their their movements, and the The way they speak and the things they touch, and that it's almost like they're second guessing themselves, because they realize the spotlight is on them at that moment, but I kind of feel it too, you know, I get my online check. And it's not just the line check in the aircraft online, we all go to simulators to a couple times a year, so and you get the same feeling when you walk in there too. But, you know, being one of the guys who does the checking routinely, I still walk in and I feel the pressure on myself to perform because I don't want to go on there. Let me fail. Yeah. Can you imagine how so? But yeah, check registers. It's a real thing. I feel like I get a little bit of it as my
mouth is what keeps you on your toes too, you know? Yeah.
We feel alive.
Some of our listeners, maybe they're in business aviation right now they're getting ready to go work for an airline for the first time. Maybe they've got a lot of experience, thousands and thousands of hours but they're transitioning into you know, a company Different operation, kind of like we talked about the ground school, the same training, those are stressful things, but you're kind of what you're used to that, I think, because you've been to flight safety or the other training. And I think that's pretty similar. And I think it's the IoT stuff is when you really realize how different things are. If you were going to give some advice to professional pilots who maybe have a fair amount of experience flying, but never in the airline setting, like how should they approach it? What do you recommend that they do?
Chuck Airman 36:30
That's great question. First off, have to base have the basics down. You know, anytime you came into a simulator, you had these things down and you should bring the same things with you to the airplane. And that is know your memorandums, your limitations, your call outs, your flows and your profiles. There is zero excuse not to have any of this. And by the time you show up to the airplane, all those should be done. So let's just consider that a given and all pilots should know that Once you show up, whoever is doing your operating experience with you, they're your friend, they're there actually to help you out. Okay? It's not the enemy guy trying to weed you out like we're trying to. We're also part of the same pilot group that you're now a part of, and we're trying to bring you into the ranks and kind of get you going. So listen to me, and do what I tell you. It really is that easy. I'm not going to lead you down the wrong path. Just if I tell you something, just go do it. And everything will be so much easier for you. And check your ego at the door. I don't care how many typewriters you have, or how many 10s of thousands of hours this is probably a new airplane for you. Or even if it's not, it's a new airline for you. And we just have a new different way of doing things from where you came before. So you might think something we do is weird. Well, we probably thought it was weird the way you do it at your airline too. So and then the last one, this is the last item I'm gonna say is just please show up on time.
Cooperate, do you have
Chuck Airman 37:53
to say that you'd be surprised.
Especially with the new hires, you think you'd be so excited to have a job IB think you'd actually show up on time, but it happens. Yeah. And then you have to have an awkward talk that you didn't, that you really weren't signing up for that day about professionalism. Geez.
Well, I think it's what's what's interesting, I think when you come for guys coming from corporate aviation to the airlines, is that when you go to training stuff, the profiles and call outs, all those things are suggested you know, they can't really force you to do it unless you're at a real structured someone 35 carrier so but even then, it's just it's not the same as the airline where it's like, you know, it's verbatim you fly the jet how they want you to fly it and you know, you a lot of the corporate guys are used to just kind of doing it how they want to do it or flying the approach and you know, the different segments at whatever speed they feel like that day and stuff like that. It's just not the way it's done. So, you know, I think guys just have to remember it's a very, very, but the reason for that is not fine with the same dude every day like I like I do. Men, you could be one of 5000. Guys, everybody's got to do it the same. And that's
Chuck Airman 39:04
called that standards. Yeah, standards. Sure, no matter who you're sitting next to the next day, they're going to expect you to do the same thing as the last person who sat your seat the day before.
And the reality of the matter is, you're going to have to do it either way. So you may as well just show up and do it from the start. That's it. Because it's a, it's the end of the program.
Chuck Airman 39:23
I tell myself this one thing all the time when I'm at work, I say, it's not my airline, you know, someone else wrote the book, and I'm just doing it to get my paycheck. So yeah, and I related that to these fellows to like, Look, if someone's gonna pay you, they're telling you to do it this way. They're gonna pay you just just do it that way.
What about the military guys? How do they do with the standardization?
Chuck Airman 39:41
Did you find, you know, their various studios? You know, the military gave them procedures and such so? Yeah, you know, they're they do pretty well. I've enjoyed most of their, a lot of them have a lot of hard work. work ethic is pretty good with them. So cool.
What about would you say do you have Any stories that come to mind of maybe a time that was really like a challenging trip or a challenging student that you didn't know if they were going to make it? And maybe it really challenged us as a check airman? And maybe they did? I don't know. Do you have any, any any stories like that? Or maybe they didn't.
Maybe they're taking orders at Taco Bell. Now.
Chuck Airman 40:26
I certainly believe that each individual, there's certain people that are pilot oriented and some are just not. And so some people start a career as a pilot, and they will just never have the ability as someone else they just don't turn their head doesn't work in that type of mechanical way. They don't have the this the spatial thinking or the situational awareness that others have. Yet they will still have an entire career. Cheryl still go start to finish they'll just always be known as the pilot. Just that just wasn't the hot shot. Those those people when they come through yeah that they're challenging and it will probably take quite a bit longer than others and usually they make it through and they'll do fine nothing will ever come of it. I mean look at America's safety record is fantastic. But those people exist and yeah they're happening and you feel for you give me my get a little frustrated.
Why does it feel like you're you're talking to me chats, making eye contact me when you're talking boy, you're extremely attractive.
I think what's interesting as we saw that as flight instructors, I mean, some of those kids I remember that just washed out right, never went home and never came back. Yeah, so it starts at that level. And then we all had students that you know, just fine just doesn't come as natural to some people as it does to others. And I think what's what's you have to remember, you know, maybe you think about this too, in that perspective is this guy it may be more frustrating. It's more work for you and everything else but think how hard that guys had to work to get to that point. Compared to somebody comes natural to and you know, We've all seen it. And it was really, you know, I think I, there's a couple students that come to mind that I had that were just, you know, they worked so hard, and they just, it just was not easy for them.
Chuck Airman 42:10
But they make it through, you know, major way to a national major carrier. It's not the time to give up now this person is there to succeed. You know, but the time to give up was years ago. Yeah. So you, you know, we don't give up on them. They have every opportunity to succeed like everyone,
that's how it is pretty much everywhere. Somebody's there and they're willing to put in the work, then usually the airline will give them the support to get to the program.
Chuck Airman 42:35
Yes, there. You'd be surprised how many, how many. It can go a long way. They will hold your hand for a long time. They'll make sure you get through their, you know, their nobody's going to dump anybody until there's certain that this just isn't for you. That's very, very, very rare. very infrequent. Yeah. So to answer Dylan's question, no, I don't really have anything specific.
It all blends together.
Chuck Airman 42:59
thousand hours of it is, you know, checking. You can bring the name of a person up to that, or bring up the name of a person that I flew with three weeks ago. And I was like, Oh, yeah, I flew that person. I have no clue there. It's true. Because you know, I get to three people a week. And it just, it's like my dad, he was a doctor, we'd see one of his patients in the grocery store said, Oh, Dr. Paul.
And then they'd walk away Go, who's that? He goes? I don't know.
Chuck Airman 43:26
Well, yeah, I have flown with hundreds and hundreds of pilots from my airline. So I just throw the same don't tell you why I finally appreciate who you are. It's a good thing. Yeah, that's
the thing you find under the radar. Yeah,
that's right. If the chief pilot doesn't know your name, that's what they usually say. All right. So getting back up one other question I want to circle back to you know, we talked about airline pilot or regional airline pilots, military pilots, business aviation pilots, that they have some differences. What do you see as far as with age difference, you know, when you when you have Have students that are, you know, like you talked about a 23 year old versus if you're doing it with someone that's later on in their career, how does that affect things?
Chuck Airman 44:09
Well, age happens to us all, you know, we're, I know all three of us here in this room are all getting older too. And, and you know, every year we're going to start seeing our, our own performance change, we will add to our experience, but maybe other things might not be as quick as they once were. And so I've noticed that our older, more senior pilots will have a wealth of experience that they can rely on and I like to think of them as very predictive. Picture yourself in a situation flying into an airport surrounded by a lot of storms and you got air moving all over the place. You're going up and down speeds all over the place, just wind gusts. And I swear these guys can can see it happen before it happens and and they're there ahead of time and they do things ahead of time. That makes everything kind of work out. All right. And then you got your young guy who has maybe only seen that a couple times. He put him in that situation and he might not be predictive, like the seasoned veteran to pilot. But when it happens to them, the eventual event happens to them we're looking at now I've got to react. I've got to maintain control this airplane. He's very quick. He's very quick on the controls. Were the older fella might have been a little slower to react. Compared to the
to the younger fella ticking away to thunderstorms. You want the more seasoned guy in it and it gusty crosswind landing, maybe the younger guy.
Chuck Airman 45:37
Exactly. That's the point. You know, you've got your sweet spot, you got your guys in their 30s and 40s that are kind of right there in the middle. You got so it's like, you know, think about your start as a young gun. And then you work your way up to the kind of an older gun with experience. And then you end up and then you end up with this being the super experienced guy. You've seen it all But yeah, like Max said, Let the young guy do the cross on that. He
Have you gotten? Has any students scared you in the plane? I'm sure your walk away and you're just like, oh my god.
Chuck Airman 46:13
Oh, sure. Yeah, that's happened. Gosh,
was really interesting to just hear a little bit about the world of being a check airman. I know you've seen a lot you said you've done 4000 hours worth of.
Chuck Airman 46:27
Yeah, like getting there. So
you gotta wrap it up. You know, we always end our episodes with stories. So give us a few stories you've seen from the line?
Chuck Airman 46:37
Well, the things that really stand out are the
and the funny stories, oftentimes, yeah. They're all about that there was this one trial, you know, he wasn't he wasn't doing terribly as well as he should have and we had to extend his operating experience until he was cut loose to go fly the line with the regular
folks and so so normally like a pilot, I'm sorry to interrupt but We should probably have talked about this earlier when you do that operating experience most guys you have like a minimum you have to meet, right? That's an hour, not a minimum required amount of hours and then some people get a little extra and then get a lot extra right.
Chuck Airman 47:12
Some people certainly get extra but a lot a lot of guys are at the minimum. Okay, anyway, sorry. But yeah, this one individual was certainly require an extra days. And, you know, we had a couple days in a row where it was, it could have been his final day before he's cut loose to go fly the line with everybody else and it just didn't work out. And he was very frustrated to the point where at the end of the day when I'm saying hey, we're gonna have to do this again. You know, he started pounding on things and airplanes and screaming at me finger in my face and, and whatnot, very unprofessional storm off the airplane. It was a whole big thing. But anyways, he goes, eventually he finishes up with somebody else space elsewhere. He's flying with this guy I know quite well. And he's up there one day, just unloading about how horrible this this guy Chuck is is like oh my god. So many He's, he's a terrible person. He's after me, yada, yada, yada. And then I see this guy he flew with like, the next week is like, oh, man, you should share her with this guy to say. And he tells me all about it. And the funny part is, I ran into that guy that was talking all the trash on me like a week later in the terminal. And he walks right up, shakes my hand. He's like, Hey, man, how you doing?
Great. Great. Of course, I knew everything.
But Chuck Knows all I got this one event that happens somewhat routine is, of course, all these people new to the airplane, they're landing this new airplane that they haven't flown before. And before you actually get the chance to touch the aircraft on the ground, you first have to get yourself down there to the runway to be able to touch it on the ground. And occasionally, that is a lot of work. And they're just all over the place. That's just total mayhem. Last few thousand feet trying to get down there. And then you know, even when they're trying to let it maybe maybe They did. Maybe they didn't maybe it required some input from myself. But anyways, it all worked out. We went in parts of the gate, doors open, people are getting off the airplane, and it feels like half the airplane sticking their heads and say, hey guys great landing. And of course, I'm just up there. I just totally told this person, everything they just did wrong.
So that happens somewhat quite often.
And when you're making those little adjustments, are you saying anything? Or do you just kind of do it?
Chuck Airman 49:26
No, no, you have to say because they need to understand what's going on. But okay. You know, of course, it's all learning experience for them. They get a few flights doing this. They said things to do wrong, then they show up the next day they do it better. So
yeah, I'm always still training event.
Chuck Airman 49:42
It's kind of gray.
I like to say, Oh, he's no longer training. You should already know how to fly but you're just kind of getting acclimated to the, to the world. You're doing what you've been trained to do out in the real world.
It's very political. Yeah,
it was. It was always a training event for me.
Chuck Airman 49:59
Yeah. Anything else? You know, the vast majority of what I do is leads to great success. Everybody's online doing great. Like I said that the things I remember always the funniest stories, which are usually things that are not normal, but there was this one time, I was fine with a fellow who's quite young, and he wasn't doing as well as you showed up as well. And one day when we're done, I'm trying to explain like, you know, and today is not your last day, we're gonna have to come out here do some more days. And he just, he just couldn't get it. He's a Hey, that's great. That's great at this. I'm really looking forward to doing this more and I'm trying to explain him like, you know, this really isn't the best thing. I mean, it'll be okay. But like, this isn't the best thing. And after this entire debrief, he stops, he goes, Hey, you want to go get a beer? I've tried just
horrible debrief. And I'm thinking No, don't
You should go to your room and really
Chuck Airman 50:55
think about what you've done.
And then there's this One fella.
You know, we didn't, we didn't really touch on professionalism but in the airline world is really important. You want to look good and you're in the public eye people, people are about to put their lives in your hands. So you know, portray yourself in an image that they can trust. And this guy shows up in a backpack. Not like a roller board or the he has a backpack like a sport backpack that he brought with himself to work. And he makes his way onto the airplane and and he tells me about how that chief pilot run into him and determine on basically told him about how the, he doesn't like the backpack and it's against policy and whatever, and he's got to get rid of it. And so this guy's telling me is like, yeah, the chief pilot doesn't like my backpack.
I don't either.
That's like I remember even back when I was in their lives, like 10 years ago, that was a whole thing. They were making fun of all the kids with iPods and backpacks. That was
a guy remember the guy at the airline we used to work for That would carry around a big tub of protein powder in a plastic bag. I
Chuck Airman 52:07
flew the guy recently who does
he would promote it I
love that guy was a legend.
Chuck Airman 52:14
Yeah I flew the guy a couple years ago he's he's since I'm falling them since but yeah, he had one of those little shaker bottles and he mixed himself some protein right up on the flight deck.
Good. That's good. Now it doesn't fit in the cockpit anymore.
So what happened to Yeah, those man the 121 days it's just crazy to think about like we talked about the standardization that kind of stuff and you never know who you're going to fly with. But everyone's you know, expected to be able to do the same thing. Even though everyone's standardized hand flying with different people it is it's a trip
there's all or just into some weird stuff. Yeah, like he talked to Mike, what do you do for fun and you know, I raised champion peacocks. You know, this whole thing. Like I had no idea that that was even a thing.
Chuck Airman 53:00
I just learned about it right now. Yeah,
I loved flying with the guy that you do like a four day trip with him and you would be done with for a great trip and you'd walk off the cockpit or walk out of the cockpit me like a guarantee that guy doesn't know my name
Chuck Airman 53:14
like happen all the time. Yeah.
How many kids you have and right
buddy they don't know my name. But what seems everyone seems to at the Orlando remember they would always remember where you commuted from? Yeah, that was like the one that Oh, that guy commutes from Nashville. Oh, the one thing that you would know.
Chuck Airman 53:31
Yeah. And a couple unique things about that fell I love how you brought up raising champion peacocks. Just it made me think of this one guy. I mean, this is completely off topic from what we're talking about the whole Chuck Ehrman stuff, but there was this one guy, the most interesting man I ever flew with. He spent all day telling me about how he's going to build a castle with a moat outside of Austin, Texas, underground shooting range and he had like hi