Episode 1 - Training, Ken Casey on Aircraft Transactions, and a Confrontation with a Celebrity
Updated: Mar 23, 2020
For our inaugural episode, Max and Dylan discuss simulator training and what can be done to improve the experience for customers (0:45). Ken Casey, Head of Aircraft Sales and Transactions for Pinnacle Aviation, joins us to answer questions and explain the aspects of an aircraft transaction (13:55). To wrap up, our buddy Mike shares a hilarious story of confronting an A-List celebrity during an oceanic crossing (54:10).
Episode Transcription (AI generated, not 100% accurate!)
Pilot on the Radio 0:05
You're on 121 five the emergency frequency.
Welcome to the 21 five show a new podcast for professional pilots by professional pilots. I'm Dylan and I'm joined by my friend and co host max. We're both professional pilots with experience in flight instruction, airlines and business aviation.
Thanks for tuning in to our first episode. Today we're going to discuss pilot training. We'll talk to Ken Casey, head of aircraft sales and acquisitions from Pinnacle aviation, and then we'll share one of our favorite Tales from the road. Let's jump right in.
Well, one topic that's near and dear to pretty much every pilot whether you like it or not, it happens usually every six months or every year if you're lucky, is training in Max and I just had a few thoughts about training we wanted to discuss.
Yeah, so I just got back from a initial training for three weeks out in Dallas, and, you know, coming away from that experience, having not gone to an initial and, you know, several years is the training is is good. But there's a lot that can be better. Yeah. And I think a lot of it comes down to the mentality of a training cycle, whether that's initial or recurrent. But it's, you know, we're there to a lot of people pass a check ride and check the boxes that are required under the regulations and your company requires and all that stuff and it's a lot of times a mad dash to get all that stuff done. So you can successfully graduate and have your certificate but but I think what we miss a lot is the really trying to get the most you can out of the training event and utilizing the technology in the form of simulators and everything else to really try and improve your skills as an aviator or better prepare you for the unexpected. Yeah, it's
always seems like a rush to check all the boxes. When you're in training, especially if you're a 135 pilot, it is a challenge. And I think sometimes you just don't get the chance to, to try some. Some things I know for me as a partner and one pilot when we go to a recurrent, it just feels like it's the same thing every time and the instructor comes in, especially in the simulator it goes, Okay, well, we're going to have an engine failure and then we're going to do emergency depressurization. And then we're going to do you know, they lay everything out. And I feel like it just takes away from the opportunity to really get some really random and unexpected failures when you're in the simulator. Well, that's reality. Yeah,
that, you know, obviously, you're never expecting a V1 cut, you know, right at V1 is it always magically happens in the simulator and then you know, you're going to, you know, go round and you briefing the approach or coming back to on the ground and all this stuff. It's just, it just kind of gets wild. And, again, you know, we understand there's time constraints and all that other stuff, but really a lot more can be done to make it more realistic because, you know, and throwing failures you Don't know that are coming, you know, in route?
Well, exactly. And that's why I would love to especially if this is a type you've been on for a while, be able to check some box on the training form and say, Hey, give me the advanced recurrent, especially in the simulator where we just show up in things happen and you're not necessarily briefing them. I would love something like that, you know, have weird engine failures at different places and an emergency depressurization or something when you're not expecting it. Obviously, some of those things are harder to choreograph than others. But, you know, one scenario that I've been thinking about a lot is kind of the Miracle on the Hudson scenario where, right after takeoff, you take in some birds and you have a dual engine failure. You know, I think that's a fairly realistic scenario. Obviously, it's happened before, but what would happen if you had a dual engine failure at 2000 feet above the airport? That's like that, or even at 10,000?
I mean, it's an airmanship thing at that point, or like the thing that happened to the Falcon 900, that took off out of South Florida where they put that diesel exhaust fluid into the fuel instead of pressed and they, I think, to the three engines and end up quitting. But those were realistic scenarios. But I don't really feel like there's that airmanship component is really practiced in the simulator. And I think that's a missed opportunity sometimes, yeah,
for sure. And when we were there, we did some dual engine failures. And you know, you need to circle down over the airport and know when to depart your circle from that you know, the high key to the low key point and then make your pattern to land and if you're, you know, turning a five mile final and anticipating flying a three degree glide path path, obviously, that's not going to work. And you need to, you know, know when to introduce drag and everything to land in the touchdown zone and arrive across the threshold on speed and all that stuff, which, like you said, is basic airmanship skills and you can build that glide path in the FMS and do all this stuff. You got to look outside and fly the jet. Yeah, and and i think that's, you know, another big thing that's missing And that could be helped that people go into upset training and flying small airplanes and a lot of other things. But back to the simulator thing I had a an interesting experience on one training event we had a guy that my other pilot and I always joked he was Mr. Aviation because he you know flown for the airlines in Europe and in the US and it flown cargo and it flown every small airplane you've ever heard of and flown Gulf streams and and this he done everything so we call the mystery aviation but we had a training event and under Part 91 a lot of times we will find ourselves with extra time in a sim session that you can either you know, turn it off and go home early or you can utilize that expensive sim time.
Or 135 pilots are just shutting this podcast Yeah,
right. But we had a guy in the norm at the time and the G three everybody just departed flaps 20 and you could depart flaps 10 or 20. Obviously 20 gives you a shorter runway role, but the second segment isn't as great invites over flaps 10 but everybody just used flaps 20 and he goes, you know, why do you guys always default to flap 20 He said, You know, that's that's the way we've always done it. That's how we were taught my favorite goes, Yeah, let me show you a couple things. And so we did some higher altitude, you know, hot and high stuff with terrain, and did v1 cuts in the same place, same conditions, everything else The only difference was the flop setting. And it was scary at flaps 20 It's a ton more drag and your second segment was, you know, way worse than it would be at flaps 10 and it was it was frightening and then you go to the charts and the debrief and you say okay, here's how much more runway were you actually using at flaps 10 and we look it was like, you know, two or 300 feet, it's pretty insignificant. And so after that training event, we ended up always going to flaps 10 unless there was really a reason for flaps 20 which normally would you would be directed by the MEL if you had any skin off or whatever. Because if to Are 300 feet of runway of takeoff distances making the making the difference in your flap saying you might, you might be in a pretty bad position then. But that was a good, you know, example of a guy that went the extra mile and the instructor actually initiated that extra training that I got a lot out of and it changed the way I flew the airplane for for a long time.
Yeah, that's and that's a great situation. I think in general, the onus has to be on us the customers to I don't know if it's create the lesson ourselves but demand you know, and ask for him get creative and asking for scenarios and situations. I think we can all agree right now if you're if you've been to a training center recently, you can tell they are having a hard time retaining talent just like everybody else. So to expect like you know, the the instructor to really like tailor a program to you and have it just delivered without you having to do anything. Unfortunately, in this in this climate, I it's hard to expect that I think,
but the good news is at least most of these training providers are interested in providing good customer service and, and getting, you know, that review, favorable. So if you ask and you say, Hey, you know, most of the time, they've been very receptive to that for me, and I said, you know, let's get everything done, we need to do and then I'd like to try to a circle to runway to seven entire ride and then throws, you know, some weird failures. And then I'd like an engine failure in Aspen with an 80 degrees and we'll go fly, you know, down the canyon and see how that looks and just, you know, throw some stuff that could be realistic for my particular
aviation operation because we operate in and out of those places, and it's nice to see and it gives you confidence as an aviator, departing in the summertime at some of those places. We know that performance isn't great, but you have I've seen it and you know, the airplanes capable of, of, you know, doing it in the event of engine fail or whatever else. But, you know, one one last point I wanted to circle back to and you mentioned it before, and we've both had experience with this is going through an upset recovery training program. There is a lot of documentation online about the statistics and all of the reasons to go to an upset or recovery training program. I you know, you and I both highly endorse it, of course. But the interesting thing for you and unfortunately doesn't work for me is your insurance policy actually covers the cost of attending that.
Yeah, it's a I'll just tell you sue us AIG, and they have something called the performance vector safety program and you can go in there and you can choose courses for your your maintenance guy, or extra online courses for pilots, but one of the options is a three day upset training at APS, which we are fortunate to have a location here right in Phoenix. So really it doesn't cost the owner of our airplane sent for us to go there because we can drive from home you know the whole thing and it's some great trainings and you know, you do some ground school and then you fly the extra 300 and do a bunch of you know, go through the Recovery course but you know, that training I can't recommend it enough and and I hope that we're moving in the direction of making that as a mandatory thing for air carriers are it's it's awesome and basic airmanship skills is is really becoming a lost art in aviation Flores Yeah, you know, guys that only fly professionally and don't fly small airplanes, you know, for fun or anything like that. It's you know, with the world of bottle throttles and hugs and and having a house Yeah, Veena you lose, you know, you use it or lose it and that's certainly I think, true in aviation. And, you know, when you get into a position like solely or something like that, you may have to fall back on those basics taking motor skills and in that could make the difference between living and dying. Absolutely. So yeah, check
with your aircraft insurance policy, you might be able to attend one of those programs for cheaper than you think.
Yeah. And in speaking to them, they were working with several other insurance providers as well to either give a break in the premium to help, you know, offset that cost or, you know, a bunch of the programs, but it's certainly out there. One more thing I wanted to mention was from the ground school perspective of training. I think as you guys know, you've all had ground school instructors that have either very limited or zero experience flying the actual airplane. And, you know, I think in recurrent that's maybe not necessarily as big of a deal, because you have the experience flying the airplane at that point, and you're looking for a refresher on the book knowledge and the systems, you know, and all that stuff, but on an initial training, that practical operational experience is very valuable for you to learn, you know, myself and The other pilot went through initial we're flying a new airplane we've never flown and we got it. we're expected to come home after this and start flying it. And it's great to know all that the stuff out of the book. But, you know, the little gotchas about when you're purging the water system, you know it a cold weather airport and where the water gets caught up in the, you know, coffeemaker fill valves, and here and there with that they don't tell you in the procedure and things that are a big deal. And so I think that I wish, I guess my hope is that these training providers can find guys that have experienced already in the airplane, but if not, which, you know, I don't think that's realistic 100% of the time now, but our ground school instructor was a younger guy, he has a medical can fly airplanes if he wants. The hard part was to get time off to then go fly contract and they have a requirement to fly. Or if you know, the guys don't have a medical they had to go fly the sim for a certain amount of time, but I wish they could really improve These guys and work with them more on the time off or whatever, so they can go out and fly which should be easier now than it ever has because the need for pilots is so
well even if they can't fly just to sit in the jump seat.
That's Yeah, absolutely. And really, it's not necessarily sitting in the jump seat and watching other guys fly the airplane. But once you get in cruise and saying, you know, here's how this works in real life, this is what we do and you know that and passing along so the anecdotes so you don't have to learn the hard way when you get home with your new airplane. I think would would really help things out.
Well, those are some of our thoughts about training. I'm sure you guys have some thoughts about training as well. Let us know what they are hit us up on the socials. It's two one FIV podcast. We're on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Or you can shoot us an email info at 21 five podcast calm.
And now for our next segment we interview Ken Casey head of aircraft sales and acquisitions from Pinnacle AV And Scottsdale Arizona. The reason we decided to interview Canada is that I think the aircraft acquisition process is is something that's not very well understood by the average professional pilot. Having just went through a transaction with can on the purchase of a Gulfstream, I learned a lot of things, found a lot of value in having a broker that knows the process. And so it was one of those things I wanted to bring to the show and, you know, expose everybody else to I think
there's a big perception that brokers are like, maybe negative, or that it's a sign of weakness, if a director or a or a chief pilot has to bring a broker in. Did you run into any of that in your sale? Or like what why did it add value to you
know, the reason it added value to me is those relationships that the brokers have with other brokers. There's a lot of airplanes out there that are not on controller and You know, in the relationships on these pre buys, and with calling a guy that can give you an interior quote a lot quicker than you can get it, or, you know, just things like that. I just found that that the relationships that they have were the most important thing in the deal. And in the end, that translates into dollars and cents and the deal on the plane, I can say with confidence on our airplane was a tough deal. one of the toughest that that Canada ever done, you told me and I can tell you that that deal would not have come to fruition without a broker, period. And so in, you know, in an airplane that was kind of tough to get in the market we're in it proved to be pretty valuable. So I just wanted to share that experience. Oh, here we go. Kevin Casey.
So in the studio today, we have Ken Casey he's an aircraft sales What is your official title Ken
Ken Casey 15:53
aircraft sales and acquisitions headed for Pinnacle aviation, okay, it's got still
today can we just kind of wanted Talk about selling aircraft buying aircraft. What are some things that you think professional business aviation pilots maybe don't know about transactions that you think they should? Or some other good info that we could share with our listeners?
Ken Casey 16:13
Well, Dylan, those are great questions. What we see today is a lot of there's a lot of people out there involved somehow in selling airplanes, or aircraft. There's not a lot of people that do it full time. And that's where that they make their living at and their stay on top of the markets and everything else. So one thing you always use a broker, that's, that's what they do for a living. If they're on top of the markets, that's their day to day job. And they really pay attention to that because that can make a big difference in transaction they have the relationships with the other, usually other parties involved. When it comes to transactional stuff for attorneys and tax and things like that. It always that really, that really helps. And there's a lot of things some deals can get, as you can imagine, get very complicated. And when they do get complicated, it's it's good. to have somebody that, you know, really knows what they're doing, if you will,
Unknown Speaker 17:03
yeah, Ken and I just went through a very complicated deal ourselves here. In the last few weeks, it just wrapped up. But it was a, you know, multi month process here. And I can tell you, you know, because Ken does what he does is his full time job, a lot of the value there is not only the experience he has and things like that, that I found, more importantly, something I can't replicate unless you are in that business doing a day to day is the relationships that he has. So he knew the guys on the other side of the transaction and that literally, I think that the reason we got that deal because we were in competition with other people was because of those relationships that he had built over. However many years.
Ken Casey 17:43
Yeah, and that's, that's a great point, Max. You know, really, it's like most business relationships are very, very important, especially in this especially when you get those unique transactions in the in the drawn out ones in the longer ones that even helps more but there that's always real relevant to have so Unfortunately, there's a lot of people in this business that kind of, maybe try to get involved in one transaction a year. And with doing that, it's hard to keep up on everything and really know from start to finish, you know, especially when they get complicated which a lot of the watch a lot of the transactions do these days. So that would be biggest recommendation is use somebody use a firm that's really involved with it that are on top of the markets they do this day to day and they really understand it and and I would ask for recommendations and talk to people that that they've used are your recommendations and how they're happy with you know what they did? that's what that's what I would
tell Yeah, it's amazing how quickly the airplane markets and shift and how biggest sum of money that you can be talking about like in our particular deal, I'll keep referencing because obviously that's the most fresh in our mind, but that was a matter of hundreds of thousands of dollars that the value of that airplane probably it shifted in a matter of a few months, right.
Ken Casey 18:54
I mean, markets are fat very fast moving that's crazy right now. So can you mentioned you know There's a lot of brokers out there some people doing it on this side not full time. Is there any barrier to entry or certification or anything that brokers and sales people get? Or can anybody do it? Or how does that work? No, unfortunately, the answer your question the answer, the answer is no. Somebody can we like to refer to them as basement brokers. I mean, somebody basically can get a cell phone and a card and, and you know, set up a website this day today, you can set up a website and make it look like you're a multi level national world organization. It's pretty easy, working out of your basement. So to answer your question, no, there's not a lot of certifications. There's not a license. There's not things you have to have which we're working on the industry try to make it a little more uniform credit control, because it's better for the broker community, the sales community, we'd like it a little more regulated, to be quite honest. It's one of those things you'd like a little more regulation because I think that would help everybody. And we want it where people are accountable. Because obviously, the last thing any of us want in the in the professional sales world is You don't want someone to have a horrible experience because unfortunately, that person has a bad experience. All brokers are all salespeople are bad people. It's not just the one that they used. It's all and that's what we don't want for the industry. So, so to answer your question is we're working on that there are organizations. It was narrow and now it's I add the train, there's and there's organization putting together trying to uniform that and make best practices a little bit more. And you're seeing you're seeing more than that. But to answer your question overall, no, there's anybody you know, again, pop a website, get business cards and use your cell phone, and unfortunately, they can, you know, advertise a broker dealer tomorrow. So
another question, I think that the only reason somebody wouldn't use a broker, I think, is to think that they're saving themselves money. I can tell you in our instance, if I would have pulled Canada the deal, and what his brokerage fee was, and went back over that deal and how it went, I guarantee we would have come out as a loser. Just even on the front of the deal. We're negotiate The price, you know, myself and the buyer were willing to be more aggressive than Ken recommended and actually pulled us back on the pricing anyway, question is, I guess how do you guys get paid?
Ken Casey 21:10
Well, that's that's another great question max. And thanks for the positive feedback on your transaction. But to answer your question before I go into the fee, because there's no there's no standard pay structure again, like so it's not like a real estate deal where there's and I'll tell you, the biggest challenge we have is everybody thinks just like real estate, that there's a co broke and there's various just talking to somebody today and they invest by a cobra because people are used to most people in this industry, by airplanes are used to be a lot of real estate, so they used to co broke. So they're used to the seller's agent pain in the airplane world. Each person is responsible for their own broker. So whether you're buying selling anything, whoever that you engage, you're responsible for that and that's, that's something that we'd like to see much more uniform, people understand because as you imagine that gets in some uncomfortable conversations when people aren't used to that. So we'd like to We're trying to see that more and more Secondly is it's all over the board. There's there's there's no standards so again in really like to refer to real estate where it's a it's a 6%, standard three to the by sides through the cell site. We don't have that in airplanes. So there's some brokerages in right or wrong summit actually charge a flat fee summit charge a different fee for what type aircraft it is. Commonly you do see the percentage used of the end of the retail selling price. And then obviously, you know, Commander if they're buying and selling the airplane or some other Additions on there, but there's, but there is no there's no standard and we'd like to see that more uniform. It's just it'd be accepted more run the you know, so that's not
like something that's paid out of escrow or something in the transaction or
Ken Casey 22:43
it is paid out of escrow. It is tip typically, I mean, I've seen it done differently, but typically this paid out escrow like real estate, we just don't have a standardized practice and there's no Cobra gotcha. So I like real estate but it is usually typically paid out of escrow. Just in that case, like real estate Got it?
What do you say to people that try to bring you in once a transaction is going versus engaging a broker before they start the search? What is the difference and why is it important to talk to you beforehand?
Ken Casey 23:14
You know, here's especially for a broker what they different and that was talk about that important you know, brokers typically someone that'll go out there and in trying to buy the best value airplane in the market a same thing with seller and try to sell your upline we're dealers it's a little bit different and there's there's dealers out there that do an incredible job and they're very good, very well respected in our industry, the kind of the differences sometimes typically a dealer is going to try to sell you something, obviously they have an inventory. Yeah, that's gonna be the priority. Now they can still go out and find something that's not in their inventory, but that's usually the priority. So you got to understand that fully going in. Secondly, far as bringing in the transaction to your to your question. That's a good That's a great question that soon as we get in, the better and there and the reason why is, again, we're going to analyze the before we even talk about the airplane, I want to sit someone down and make sure you find the right aircraft for that person. And a lot of times when by the time people come to me and they've already been on, everybody can go on controller calm these days and know everything, they're looking at an airplane and quite honestly, it's an airplane that they shouldn't be looking at. So the first thing when we like get involved from the very start is before we even want to look at markets before we're making offers before we're trying to creep up by any of those steps. Let's find the exact best aircraft for this person. And in one thing we see in today's market, you know, we see a lot of jets aging, and some of these price very attractive, you can imagine like old g twos and threes. And when you see that people look at price tags and go I can afford that anybody can afford one. They really have no idea what the operational costs are, what the you know, what the fixed costs are and really what it takes to operate an aircraft like that safely. So that that's that's Our real, real big challenge today it's good that you see these prices, but people really need to be educated and unfortunately again, we don't want to see a person go out and what non-representative which we see it all the time they go out and buy a rock wrong aircraft and they're really unhappy. And then they talk bad about you know, private aviation and the airplane they bought they were done wrong. No, it's not good for the industry. It's not good for us. So what we'd like to see is people getting the right aircraft from the start what's fits in their budget efficiencies for the range profile and mission you know the best and that's where we really try to get that's what we're really try to get involved. So start we can we can get involved. We've done many transactions once they've already started. Yeah, quite honestly, they're usually a trickier because a lot of times you're trying to get them on the plane. They think that's what they want. And then let's let's talk about that to a lot of these aircraft buyers. How do they come across? You know what? Well the club today when the guy played golf, his body had his body He's got a challenge or six so for now when you meet somebody at the golf course or their buddy Does he ever tell him he owns a bad airplane? It's just like you know I always got a great day everybody got a great deal right well it's the greatest airplane in the world are these everybody has a Hawker it's the greatest airplane in the world or earlier day so it goes sometimes where they get their your opinions from their buddy who does it might not even have the right airplanes suited for their needs and so that we see a lot so from we can get involved from the start that really really that really helps. I think gets them in the right aircraft is the process correct when doing finding the the best airplane in the in that segment for the pedigree, the money and again, there's there's so much more we look at a lot of people I think, just think that Oh, you're just going to negotiate a price. negotiating the price is probably 3% of the transaction. That's that's the easy part. I mean, getting up to finding the right aircraft and the pedigree and knowing what to look for an airplane is going to have resale value at the end and then going through the transaction navigate the transaction from start to finish. That's what you're paying a broker for and To answer your question from before, there's a lot of people I think max brought it up. There's a lot of people that think I'm going to save a buck here and not use a broker, I could tell you 90% of the time that I hear those, that's where the horror stories happen. And it's unfortunate, you know, there's some people out there that again, they can buy an airplane, they're probably pretty sharp negotiators they've done well and whatever they've done a, you know, real estate or ran a practice of, you know, dentist offices, whatever they do, you're probably pretty, they're pretty good at it. They're the stage of life or they're buying an airplane, which is wonderful. But a lot of times just because it makes you a great surgeon or it makes you a great This doesn't mean it makes you an expert at buying an airplane and it's worth I can tell you as long as they're represented correctly, it's definitely worth getting the right person to look out for their interest, especially when you you know pre buy inspection and what to look for and all the things that most people don't know and understand. That's where they really need to be protected and make sure again, they're getting the right airplane, the right price for airplane that fits their mission. profile and it's going to be a good plane for them in the long run.
There's so much specialized knowledge with airplanes, you know, whether even me as a pilot in flying airplanes, I don't know, enough about Cessna to even talk about, you know, what their inspections are, like, what the big ones are, how long? How much the motors cost to be overhauled, what that interval is, you know, it's just and it's, you know, on Gulf streams, it's a huge deal. You're talking about millions of dollars that shift the value either way, you got to know somebody that knows that stuff, especially for the guy that doesn't even have a pilot or an aviation guy. He's just showing up and hey, I'm ready to buy an airplane you know, those are the kinds of key get killed the worst you would think.
Ken Casey 28:34
And then unfortunately, that's what happens and again, we nobody likes to see that because it's a free space and you brought up a good point to max and sometimes I feel is a lot of professional pilots. Listen, this podcast. I feel bad on this time. Because just because, say, you know, an owner now owns a certain kind of airplane x, he owns a G 200. And he's looking at upgrading. And then what happens is, he wants to they goes to those pilots, you know, what should I get and A lot of pilots just like you said aren't versed on the other type. I mean they're they're professional flying that type aircraft they do the training that they study they understand it inside now and they're very proficient The problem is these other different airplanes sometimes they don't know and we we can all go on you know the websites and and research and stuff like that but unfortunately just because you know the Mr. Boss pays the pilot you know to fly the airplane you shouldn't be handled all the sales transaction to and you know him or her and I think that gets that puts the the pilot in a bad position too because most pilots don't want to be involved in that they don't want to feel like they put them into the wrong airplane or recommended wrong airplane. So again, I would say to all for all the for all the pilots listening today again, you know professional broker involved and that can help and make your life a lot easier and you can focus on you know, flying the airplane and what you're paid for and training everything else and not out trying to find the you know, the owners next
aircraft. I think another thing that's that's proven to discusses the fact that a lot of airplanes that are there's a lot more than what's on controller or whatever that's out there and there's you know, the big big keyword and airplane brokerage is off market
yeah I was that was what
I wanted explanation that what does that mean?
You know and I think that's the brokers trying to protect their deal is keep it between the brokers because then they have something that the layman doesn't you know, which is just like the multiple listing service if realtors that's why the realtors control it so you know, sure they control everything. And I think that's their way of doing it. But again, I think our plane was off market winner
Ken Casey 30:32
Yeah, so the off market airplanes in a lot of good airplane sometimes can be sold, do a lot of transactions where they're never even they see the light of market and sometimes that helps and quite frankly, it keeps a lot of professionals involved. And brokers and dealers like those because again they're typically the people that know about that as people that relationships and brokers and dealers they like doing business with so that makes it easier for everybody because I think it gets somebody in their new effect calls off control calm has No idea that transaction, they try to try to re write it how they want it to rewrite the deal. And that gets very complicated. So great point, Max. And there are a lot of good off market opportunities out there that usually the community knows about, and they do a good job of keeping those quiet. And sometimes those are the best. Those are the best opportunities out there because the whole world hasn't seen them and usually get some pretty, pretty good aircraft.
So would it be more accurate instead of calling it off market to call it broker? Only? Maybe?
They're on the market.
Ken Casey 31:32
Right? I like it. Yeah, that's a good point. They're not off market. They're quiet quiet to the right circles. Yeah. Not quite to the certain circles. How about that?
Let's talk about deals in escrow. What would you say is the most is there a most common thing you see blow a deal up? Maybe once the airplanes in the pre buy process or, you know, things have actually moved forward beyond the negotiation and there's actually things happening as you know anything more than others.
Ken Casey 31:58
The pre purchase inspection is very Is that's the biggie. Yeah. And again, that if somebody, you know, being counseled, and there, they have good advice, and then someone is handling that pre person inspection, they usually go, that usually goes pretty smooth because again, they know what inspections to do, what shops to use everything. So they're not they're set up correctly from the start. Now with that said, there are certain airplanes out there that they're going to find things in pre purchase inspection, I don't care. You know, here we are in Scottsdale, 75 today in February, but there's airplanes that come out of that, you know, the less corrosive environment than this. And they have corrosion sometimes. So there's major things that come up and pre by inspection. So again, having the right people to navigate through those and get through that. And again, sometimes there's a point where you you don't want to pursue what the airplane but the good news is that your Look, I mean, that's your I always say it's like you when you open somebody up for surgery, I'm not a doctor in any way or a surgeon but when you open up that's when you see the real deal. And that's the same thing with an airplane people always asked me, what's it going to cost or what are they going to find? You don't know, you really don't I've seen airplanes that have come from very corrosive environments that we thought we'd open up and we've had a lot of corrosion, or certain parts of the world like you know, Europe's very known. A lot of airplanes coming from Europe are known for corrosion and a couple of reasons why is you know, about half the airplanes in Europe, sit outside day, they don't have the hangar space and B is some of the stuff that uses the ICF over there and stuff that they don't you know, it's great for keeping the runway non content you know, not contaminated and getting that stuff remove it, but guess what, when it gets up in the wheel wells and on the landing gear, it's bad news and if you don't spray it off which course most people don't especially if the airplanes not hangar, that's it, you know, how do you spray it when you come back? And you know, am in a, in a snowstorm so it gets we see that? But again, with that said, we've seen airplanes come back with you, you know, you open them up and you expect to find things you don't Other times you expect it to be pretty clean, and sometimes they're not. So it's one of those things. That's why it's so important to do a real thorough PR pre bye bye there by the shop, there's certain shops that are better with certain type aircraft, they know them in their knowledge as much, you know, deeper and those type of aircraft and obviously, you know, recommend that as well.
You know, I think it's interesting, too, that I didn't realize is that a big part of the pre buy is negotiating the scope of the pre buy. So you can't just go, No, we're just going to do the standard price.
Ken Casey 34:19
There's a, that's a negotiation between the buyer and the seller, how deep you're going to dig on those pre buys. And that's huge, because that could either one, you know, prevent a problem from being revealed or to, you know, really run the bill up for the seller. If you're uncovering everything. So just you know, that's an important part of the negotiation to that I didn't realize even took place in that's a great point. And again, we go back into that were that negotiate everything. So you negotiate the sales price, and you're done. Again, that's that probably 3% of the transaction or 2%. Where you really get started to Max's point is when that when the inspection starts, or before you even start the inspection, negotiate what you're going to look at. And again, again, you want both sides to be fair, and you got to make sure but you've got to know what to look for in certain airplanes, certain airplanes. Again, we go back to corrosion, that's been a big issue lately. And it seems like more and more we're seeing corrosion in airplanes, whether it's an engines, airframe labs, wherever we just seen that become more prone, it's a big deal, because obviously, it's so high dollar. And the repairs, you know, are, you know, are so expensive. So the bottom line is, you've got to know where to look and where to look for the high value areas, you can't do everything in a pre purchase inspection. So you need to know what to do with the time you have and the resources you have a where to look for the high fail areas and the gotcha areas, if you will, necessarily.
Well, and the thing, also to point out is that no broker can be an expert on every type of air.
Yeah, that was my next question.
A good broker knows who to call for that kind of airplane to find out, you know, that the tails on some of these golf streams have this problem where these holes get elongated and then from vibrating around and, you know, that's somewhere you should be looking, you know, because that could cost you 100,000 bucks. And so there's those gotchas like he said, and You know, you're also paying him to know who to call to get the answer
Ken Casey 36:04
absolutely, or to the resources. And that's a great point, there's no way that every broker can know every type of aircraft inside now and especially maintenance, I'm not a maintenance expert by any means never professed to be one. When I get into maintenance situations, we have a maintenance expert, we have maintenance consultants, we bring them involved, get them, you know, get the experts involved in the areas that they know, kind of stay in their lane. And that way everybody can get to keep the transaction moving smoothly with the with the right people getting through it and knowing their specific areas. So
let's say you have a broker you really like or there are no good brokers in town. Can you use a broker in a different town or is it a big advantage to have somebody that's very local to you? What How does that work, but not necessarily
Ken Casey 36:45
at all. You either use the broker no matter where they're at, that you're comfortable with that you knows, you know, going to represent you the best whether you're purchasing aircraft or selling aircraft. And again, what I majority my clients aren't local. They're all over the world and that's why What I think most, most good brokers and dealers, you know, have a have a wide wide network of where their people are at. Now, typically, it's nice when you're selling an airplane, to have the airplane local, it just makes it more convenient. But we lyst airplanes all over the world, which means you're on the airlines a little bit more planes getting out there and for showings and stuff like that. So logistically, it makes it a little more challenging, but easily done. And most of that's how it happens. Cool.
So do you guys usually show up? What do brokers normally show up in person to every showing or when it goes into pre buy or when it closes? You
Ken Casey 37:32
know? Yeah, good question. You know, every time that Eric has been shown that we have listed we're going to have representation there. Some some brokers don't, you know, it's different schools of thought, but, but most, I think, want to have somebody representing the aircraft area. It's the old saying, I mean, if everybody's there, things usually go smoothly. It's when you're not there. That's when something but just for the key areas. If you're showing an aircraft you want to be there. Obviously if you're looking at an aircraft You know, you're going to be there and you gotta do in person, you know through the logs, you got to get the feel you got to see the hangar the airplanes coming from the shop that's working on it yet you know, really get a feel when they are playing interest pre purchase inspection, you typically want to, you know, you're typically going to be there and involved or your or your maintenance expert is going to be involved in that. at closing, obviously, you're going to be you're going to be there with aircraft and make sure it's ready to close. And then usually on your acceptance and delivery flight, you want to be on those. And again, if there's a flight coming to the pre purchase facility, typically you're going to be on that as well.
Sounds like you got a lot of airline miles.
Just to put you on the spot a little bit that I don't know if you have an answer to this, in your opinion. Is there a really good deal in business aviation aircraft right now? Like is there one airplane you see that's like man for the bang for the buck? It's really hot, or have you seen something like?
Ken Casey 38:54
Well, to answer your question, it's a good question and I get asked it all the time. Yeah. And there are some certain markets, they're stronger than others. Yeah. But I wouldn't I wouldn't just tell you one airplane overall, I wouldn't say this. But in a light jet segment in the mid sized, super mid, large, also long range there are there are airplanes that stand out that can be, you know, better deals. And other. More importantly, I want to answer your question because I get asked this all the time when someone comes to me goes, I want a great deal. Everybody wants a great deal. Yeah. The real in this economy we're in right now, if something appears too good to be true, guess what? It probably is too good. Yeah. So I really caution people and try to educate them on we're not just looking at the price of the airplane, obviously, the price and if someone's depressed about something that's very important, and we're making sure we're not overpaying for an airplane, but again, we want to buy I'm looking at the pedigree of the airplane, how it was maintained. Everything now that when we go to sell that airplane, and the economy might not be as good that we won't have, you know, things that are going to that are going to hinder us from selling the aircraft. So more importantly, ever again that I want a great deal, right now in this economy again, if something appears to be a great deal, there's probably a reason or it would have sold already. So that's the reality of it. It's the great, you know, steals, if you will, you don't see a steel out there and then there's a reason why because it would already been gone. And if it's still there, there's probably a reason so the usually when you someone brings me a deal of the steel deals, if you will, yeah. When we start looking into them, there's a reason that it's a steel deal. Yeah, that's that's the reality of it.
Yeah, I mean, there are plans that I think there are regarded as having a lot of value. I mean, like, legacy god g4 out of airplane for any half million dollars, or it's a lot of the G 345. hundred five for you know,
Ken Casey 40:44
here's here's what you're seeing Max, those are good points. But I'll tell you, what we see with the legacy aircraft is prices still declining. And to your point, there are a lot no one would argue that there are a lot of there a lot of airplane for the money, where people what we're seeing is they're getting Nervous over maintenance you know all your fixed expense getting parts people are really getting a tune to that what people like today is they love they love newer airplanes, they love them I want them on engine programs, they want them on parks programs and the reason why is they really want to have a good idea what that direct operating costs is going to be an hour what that fixed cost is and are they don't like surprises. So someone you know, we see them paying the newer generation airplanes that burn less fuel obviously that are more efficient. Those markets have been very hot, especially the owner flown, you know, like like jet markets You know, you're talking to CJ to pluses CJ three CG force that's been hot because I think a lot of people in that segment are moving up their private business has been doing well and they're keep moving up. So with that said, Is there certain segments that move much stronger than others, but today that newer efficient on programs definitely is what majority of the people are looking for. Not to say there's not still there's buyers for legacy aircraft. Unfortunately some people that are buying legacy airplanes shouldn't be buying them because they don't know what they're getting into. And then there's other very savvy buyers that are buying them because they understand that it's a lot like Max said, it's it's it's a lot of bang for the buck, and it's great. And as long as they understand that going in, that's wonderful. We are just we get nervous and usually people aren't educated correctly that just look at the price tag as we all know. Yeah. operating a legacy golf stream. It doesn't matter if someone gives it to you, you know, you still
that horse still eats a lot. Yeah, so it's that's the reality. Yeah,
it's funny and people overlook to where you know, there's a lot of stories of legacy golf dreams going into the shop for their 5000 cycle or 5000 landing year extent air inspection and leaving on a flatbed truck so you know how well the jerk
the buyer leaves on the fat flat.
Ken Casey 42:54
Wire does after he sees the bill for the five
in the back ambulance
airplane leaves in a truck
can what is when you are looking at airplanes on the market? And I think you've kind of touched on this already. What are the biggest red flags You see? So when you're looking at a listing and you see a couple things what is it that really stands out to you that no logs? No
Ken Casey 43:20
Yeah, that's that's a bigger now you don't usually just looked at it initially you don't have a lot of books or not. But some of the big things I'll tell you what, we've bought a lot of great aircraft that have come out of the United States. There are certain countries obviously you can imagine that you're much more cautious about buying airplanes than others. We bought wonderful airplanes out of Europe but your poses new challenges like we were talking about that you'll see a lot of corrosion coming back or a lot of airplanes to just getting a pre purchase inspection in Europe. You know, you paid double what you pay in the States on typically not you know, on every case, but typically, you add more time then you get export CSV and all that there's just a lot more to it. Again, doesn't mean there's great aircraft that can be bought from Europe. You Just have to know what you're getting into. So obviously, if I've got an airplane side by side, that's the same deal that I can buy in Texas with a like pedigree and stuff like that, you're probably going to look at that aircraft, you know, in the states easier. Again, there's certain countries that are wonderful to buy airplanes. There's certain ones that you really bring up some red flags you started going to South America, and inexperienced we look at some of those times you start getting the log books of things that just aren't real clear in the log books are aren't.
Is that because they're in a different language? Yeah,
Ken Casey 44:32
well, that's a funny start. It gets confusing with a different light. But no, we seem in a different language, but just you start getting Lucy goosey, if you will. Now, again, not saying every airplane comes that comes from that region, and we see wonderful airplanes, you know, Mexico gets a real bad rap, if you will. And we've seen great airplanes come out of Mexico, but a lot of punches out of Mexico can be very challenging. So that red flag, if you will, you know right now that our first priority is probably looking to North America, you know, US register we are playing, then we're going to look more into it. And we want to see the pedigree who owned it for how long? And a lot of people always say, what's a one owner play? Well, that's great. But if the one owner, you know, they didn't maintain that perfectly or the something else, then that's not a good deal, obviously. So one thing I will tell you that people get caught up on too much, because they're so used to buying cars is what's the first question they ask is? How many hours it has on it? Because right when you buy a car, yes, how many miles it has on it. And unfortunately, that probably gets people in a trap because there are certain airplanes that we know that people out here that listen to this are flying, you know, wonderful machines with higher time on it, it doesn't mean anything. We've seen low Time Machine, you know, that have a bunch of corrosion budget problems or corrosion or issues. Great points. So that's just again, that's the perception of that and someone to go out and ever look at that high time airplane ride. Never look at this. Honestly, one thing that scares me sometimes I'll see a real low low time airplane. That extraordinary low And when I that's a red flag to me because then you want to look in the log books and see did that airplane sit for five years wasn't hangar and I'd be one of the engines not pickled without taking care, or so much of some of those go, Oh, it's low time. It's great. Not necessarily. So again, just looking at everything, you know how it appears, you've got to look more into it and really dig to see what with what that is. But just those are some of the main ones to country. The total terms are first things you look for. I don't care about painting interior. You know, people get caught up on how it looks. You get an airplane with a nice pedigree, you can make it look however you want paint an interior wise be worried about you could never change the pedigree of an airplane. Obviously, you can always you can always change the look of an airplane. And unfortunately, people want to know hours and they want to have looks. And I tell people tell me all the time Oh, I don't care how it looks. We're going to redo it anyway and we'll go look at an airplane and you can just tell or the wife looks at and goes oh, I don't like it. And it turns them off on the airplane no matter how bad you set them up. So it's still Hard to get over that precept. Yeah,
it's tough to I think for some people because they're going to make a down payment and then finance the rest and then they're gonna take the airplane and then shell out another half a million dollars for paying interior or whatever. And so I think a lot of people want to limit their their cash outlay because you buy one that's new paint interior, that's all fine as well. Right? So that's downtime to
you. Today is Thursday. Again,
Ken Casey 47:20
you know, the great the, one of the negatives of a great economy, it's just getting in getting in for maintenance events are getting new material shops, not easy. They'll call you and tell you, you know, come see us in six months, we'll be glad to take carry. So
what about damage history? What's your take on that? Well,
Ken Casey 47:36
okay, so very wide. That's their very wide range. There's certain things that again, it's how it was repaired, who did it, the story behind it, how it's written in the log books, you really want to look into that. I've seen some airplanes that have been damaged and you probably want nothing to do with them. Other planes were just considered damage history. Were were fixed properly. They have what we call no three, three sevens. So typically they're fixed with new parts on very clean in the log books. And usually those are very acceptable and that usually aren't deal killers. So but begin at people at some I don't want an airplane with any damage on it. Well, it's like anything the older an airplane gets specially when you start talking about 1520 year old airplanes, I don't care what you say something in 15 or 20 years is going to happen, whether it's going to hang a rash, or the tail is going to, you know, barely hit the side of the hanger or whatever. It's just, there's very few airplanes out operating in the world today that are 15 plus years old, that have not had something where that tug hasn't hit or a hanger, you know, just some kind of incidents. So you just got to really look into it more and how it's going to be perceived, how it was repaired, who did it and how it was written up and really look at that and see if that's something you want to pursue.
When you look, I just wanted to talk a little bit about a DSP the upcoming mandate. How does that affect value? What are you seeing in the deals is that Something that's beat that compliance is being met in pre buys a lot or how is that working?
Ken Casey 49:05
Well, good question. Um, so it's really come up in the last six months. You know, now everybody that doesn't know what a DSP is, knows at least what a DSP is. And they know if they buy an airplane, they have to have it. So that's becoming very important. Again, here's where our challenges now a lot of these shops just to do an ad GSB job, you can call them today and you're going to get in in six months or something. They're so busy, so provides a good time to do it after you accept the airplane. But it looks like you know, as of now, nothing's been extended. I think a lot of people were hanging on kind of see if it you know, was getting extended. Now what now one advantage of people some of the people that have hung on is some new solutions have come up in the last couple years. So say people that rushed out and did at SB four years ago, there's already been changes and there's been, you know, better solutions that have that have come as well. So with that said, but now I think we're running out of time, if you will obviously, you know here we are at the end of the year, it's got to be done. So that's definitely an airplane that has a DSP right now obviously is going to sell quicker than when it doesn't have a DSP out. Another thing along those same lines, Wi Fi used to be five years ago, you know, Wi Fi was on some large cabin airplanes, nobody even asked for light jets. Wi Fi is coming to the point now where people I mean, on a light general was expecting that it has Wi Fi not not always a deal killer. But again, it can be worked in the deal, but then you're talking extra time extra money. So airplanes with Wi Fi are definitely more marketable as well. And that's where seeing that really, really changed.
So I don't know if you can even really answer this question. But if you had someone that came to you as a seller with an airplane that did not have a DSP, for example, and I know there's a lot of factors to consider, but is it generally better for them to do that before they list it or is that in the deal or if
Ken Casey 50:57
they can do it before they list it's great because that's going to make You're playing more marketable a lot of times that's reality that doesn't happen. So what we would key thing we'd want to do is get multiple quotes and see what it's really going to cost. That way when you can educate people trying to buy the aircraft a what their different solution options are three are multiple options and be what it's going to cost and really to get it in and that's something you could you try to work right after the pre purchase inspection, after the person's accepted the aircraft and at the same time and get it done.
All right, can give us a good story from selling airplanes.
Otherwise no names.
Ken Casey 51:37
There, you're putting me on the spot. Yeah, that's me. I've got some good stories. Well, but
without naming names or specifics, it just goes back to what we've talked about today.
We like the good stories, I mean, at the end of the day, the bottom line is when someone buys an aircraft or they sell their aircraft, you want them happy. Because it's such a small group of people and everybody talks and it's the old adage I mean if someone has a bad experience they talked to everybody if they have a good experience will talk to a couple people and it's like that for aircraft sales world just like it is for everything else. So we really try but you know I've seen some I've seen some experiences that have started off you know, not good and they've turned out to be good situations. And it turned out real happy but the at the end of the day, you know, it's very fulfilling when somebody gets an airplane or I get a call six months later this happened about a year ago and there is a gentleman to the exact scenario he was he was going to be worth between a CJ two and a CJ three and for his mission I said you know, CJ is a wonderful airplane but if you can do a CJ three I think you're going to be real happy at what your mission does and never forget he called me and he just said I gotta tell you I'm so glad I listened to you. He just come back from Orlando back to Phoenix nonstop in a CJ three which you never been able to do that with CJ to Atlanta with about 1000 pounds. A few was VFR, you know, perfectly above minimums. And he was so happy because just how much more that would have restricted him and what they look. So it's always good to have once it gets in the right airplane, and everything's done, right, the star and they're happy and they really enjoy that airplane. That's, I think, what's the most fulfilling is at the end of the day. But you know, everybody keeps everybody happy. And, again, aviation is a small community. We want people in the right airplanes, because we want them enjoying it talking high. It's good for everybody that's listening to this and pilots mechanics, flight attendants included because the more people that have good experiences in private aviation, guess what they're telling people and the route upgrading to do to to, you know, different type larger, more capable airplanes.
Well, that's really well said.
Ken Casey 53:47
Well, thank you so much for your time today. Can we really appreciate it? We're going to put your contact information on our website in your with Pinnacle aviation, Pinnacle aviation, based here in Scottsdale, and I'm glad to help and wants to call me and just We can run, you know, comparison reports, you just have questions, happy to always talk and help any, any way we can.
Awesome. Thanks for your time Ken can thank you.
All right, we've got our buddy Mike in the studio today if we were going to get a couple of good stories of him from his days of flying hardcore 135. So have you ever had any situations like when you're in route and you've had any unruly passengers?
Actually, yeah, I had once. One time I had an A list movie star, and I can't name them because everybody will know who he is. But he, we were just coming at us somewhere. I want to say somewhere out of Europe or something like that. Was it Kansas? Yeah. Yeah. And we're coming back. And you know, we're just, everything's cool. And you know, that was back when three pilot crews were still loud. And maybe they are but I don't know. So I'm sitting on the floor and this the passenger comes up and he's like, Hey, guys. What's going on? He's like, I gotta take a piss. And so we're like, Okay, well the bathroom is right here. Okay, I'm going so he you know, he opens up the door and looks in there and it just starts going.
This is the Ford lav and yeah, this
is the forward lav.
Yeah. Which is on the aircraft left side. Is it face sideways? Like is it kind of a tough deal
if you want to stand up you have to face is definitely so he's he's standing up but he's not really angled in the direction that I feel is normal or which way you need to be going. And so I'm just thinking, Okay, well, you know, he's got to know what he's doing in there at this point. So he closes the door up and comes up and starts chatting with us and he's saying all kinds of funny things. He clearly been up for a couple of days like non stop just straight through party. And man what you know what's going on up here? You know, if you guys need somebody to help you let me know will be in the back and I'm okay. Anytime. Just jump up anytime you want. Okay, okay. Yeah. So if we're going to crash the You're going to let us know in the back right and he's just getting real fired up and just starting to get a little crazy and I'm thinking out man, and the whole time You know, I'm sitting on the floor and he's pretty much right above me and I'm about waist level to where he's sitting so I've got you know, his front side of my face here and I can hear that he's definitely got a cold or something and as he's saying this you know, I'm just getting I'm taking a shower and all of his in his in his bit and everything that's coming out of his mouth with his pronunciation so I can feel it on my face and I'm just thinking man, this is this is nuts but as he gets more and more fired up, I'm finally I'm like, dude, listen, if if we're going to crash all that, you know, but I'm going to put it you know, on a nice mountain with some snow on it. And we're going to have a helicopter come and pick us up and give us a ride and be where we're going. And he looks down at me and he's got this look like he's ready to brawl. He is ready to go and the the F at the current time the guy in the right seat was looking Adam to and he was thinking kind of the same thing. And there was this awkward moment of silence. And I'm thinking, oh man, here we go. This is going to be squared off right now and I don't have any zip ties. I've got no way to restrain this guy other than, you know, the extra seat belt or something that I could
So at this point, have you guys
coasted out? Oh, we're probably two and a half, three hours over the ocean.
I know. You're committed.
Yeah. So So I'm thinking, Man, there's no way to tie this guy down. Who knows what he's gonna do? And he finally he's just looking over us and he just says, All right. I'm going to the back and he goes back and he passes out. So after we're all kind of sitting around decompressing about what just happened here, and realizing that we almost just got in a fight with this dude and had to restrain him to the point where, who knows what would happen? I think to myself,
what did he do in
I go back there and the bus tub that we used to put all of our glasses and plates and stuff in it. Full of pee. He didn't even lift the toilet seat. I mean he just went right in the tub and you know his wine glasses were in there his place where it is
that you know that is not a place to be paying but that's that's what he did. So Mike, what did you do at that point? Did
you serve him a nice place to give
him a glass of wine? Fortunately at that point,
I don't know what it was, but I think he just had a revelation of I am really messed up. I'm going to go take a nap. And so he that's what he did. He ended up going straight to the back and he just jumped on the couch and crashed for the rest of the flight. That's good
coffee. I would be crazy to have to try and restrain somebody What did
you do? Did you like try and put it in the lab or did you wait till you landed or what did you
mean? Well, yeah, I mean we of course we had to take care of it. You know, I mean, you're over the middle of the ocean. So I think that the flight attendant, put some gloves on and and basically took the glasses and all that out of the one tub and put them in the sink and kept the water going there. And then pour that In the lab, and you know, did the best we could with what we had.
There really is no more glamorous and exciting job than being a corporate flight attendant. And I think just
yeah, you really get to see both
sides. It looks pretty cool on Instagram.
Yeah, it was really fun on me. Yeah.
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai